Now thigns are better.. Eve is a PVP GAME, all ships that bear weapons should be PVP ships as much as possible.

We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.

We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future.

its PVP GAME!!!

What you want is IRRELEVANT regarding that. Sure you can try to balance ships for PVE, but not at the cost of makign them USELES for PVP

its PVP GAME!!!

What you want is IRRELEVANT regarding that. Sure you can try to balance ships for PVE, but not at the cost of makign them USELES for PVP

I want my marauder skill points back .

Here's a hint for your departmental dialogue: do what I suggested like 50 pages ago. Redo the whole T2 battleship selection with a PvE-specialized BS; an actual PvP / direct combat-focused Marauder; and a revised, more stealthy / support-oriented blackops battleship. It fits your design philosophy (T2 ships specialized for one role) and actually has a hope of making the various crowds that have been posting in this thread happy. Whatever you do, DO NOT try and make a combination PvP/PvE ship and DO NOT end up making a "HAC" version of battleships that would make a viable fleet PvP ship.

E: I guess it was more like 70 pages ago. Here's a link: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3559765#post3559765

You mean as in you need to risk gettign to 10% of your shield before activate the repair or you will waste half of your repair cycle? NOT SO OP.....


NUmber crunshing is not same as in game.

Why this marauder idea is bad:

GÇó capitals are brought on field if subcap fight looks favorable
GÇó t2 buffer marauders roflstomp all other subcap fleets (possibly even worse with target spectrum breakers putting the EHP into good use)
GÇó only bang for buck counter is dronefleet


What could be done about it:

GÇó Make the bastion a siege mode with guns gaining double rate of fire but hopping tracking and resolution to dread levels. This would -make marauders an anti-capital power creep mechanism. The bastion mode would only hit structures and capships, for subcaps you use them like normal BS.
GÇó Cut the t2 resist crap and roll bonus into bastion which now won't work against subcaps.
GÇó Cut the ewar immunity crap.
GÇó Cut the MJD crap.

Now you have a specialized (t2) anti-capital subcap. Not a "lets do 7 different things and be best at each specialized". The price is high and vulnerability too to make them less powerful vs. subcaps because you can't blink around every minute or fit half million ehp buffer. Counter power creep of capitals.

These mauraders would be pretty much useless against a cap fleet. Local tank only wouldn't be able to handle slowcats. Plus an immobile battleship with a large sig? Dread fairy says YES!

......and for a dedicated PvE boat, mauraders kind of suck at PvE, they are big and they are slow and not particularly versatile Golem likely being the best but when I threw a pile of them into the fitter to see if I could come up with anything to justify buying the skill book(s) I came up with "meh"

Aside from being able to salvage on the fly there isn't a lot going for them, the pirate BSs, specifcally mach and vidi are just plain better.

wut? care to explain and provide numbers or you just troll?

Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....


I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P


But for others is too.. non useful.

The vargur already have that tracking bonus :P


What i Think is that ALL the web bonsu shoudl be come another DAMAGE bonus. YEs DAMAGE, there is nothting so strange on T2 battleships taht enter in a type of siege mode, to have higher damage than T1 battleships.


Even if the damage bonus only applies while in bastion mode.

For example 5% damage per level WHILE in bastion mode.

That is helpful for BOTH PVE and PVP. Woudl make the ship better at BOTH situations, sicne killing enemies faster is the best tank you can have in missions, you would be LOVED in wormholes and incursiosn (if you are tough enough to tank it) and you would be amazing high sec POS killer.

The thing is, they were only supposed to be for niche PVP situations and small gang or solo at that, the T2 resists were added because fleet whiners.

I feel like the kronos should keep its web bonuses ( maybe nerf a little....maybe ) and it should get the rep bonus back in place of the range. With these changes and the bastion module, my math was showing a paladin able to hit to like 130-135km with scorch...... 700ish dps at 135km?
More Powergrid/Cpu
Keep drone bays ( battleships without them are destroyed )
Replace the range bonus for the old rep bonus
Change the bastion module in some way to make it more useful then getting blapped by the first dreadnought or arty fleet that sees you, and in the current state it will dominate any small gang without logi.
Do not nerf speed, my nidhoggur is faster then half of those marauders.
Keep the sensor strength low ( smartbomb for ecm drones ) and the trade off is high dps, high tank for ability to be jammed when not in bastion ( there you just get lolblapped by the first arty fleet/dread )
The web bonus on the vargur and golem need to go..... those ships are just not designed for close range combat
Web bonus on paladin should be changed to be similar to that of the bhaalgorn ( keeping it in check with the race )

The T2 resists will make them more viable for missioning level 4's (not really like you're going to need the tank with bastion but at least you have it). Their increased projection should help with bringing mission completion times down, especially if one gets really good at planning triangles. This alone should be a huge buff in the eyes of the high sec marauder-missioner. The T2 resists combined with bastion's local tank bonus also should make them small gang pvp viable / WH viable / anom-combatsignature viable. I think in retrospect the +30% resists were way too strong, and the current option provides plenty of tank for people to explore coupled with a cool idea (transforming is so cool... why ppl h8ting mini dreads that can go through hi-sec?). Furthermore the stationary/sieged dynamic will be a really neat change to PVP (small scale).

Funny now check your paladin.. because it suddenly became almost immune to Explosive as well!!

Stealth bombers can fling torps at battleships at 80km range, tell me that's not usefull...

Ok, without their cloaks they need support, but so do other ships.

you mean liek Rof bonus for projectiles? Or god.. damage bonus for hybrids? OMG BONUS for modules!! REMOVE THEM REMOVE THEM!!!

Are you brain dead? This is an idea for the winter expansion, and a first pass at that.

Be patient.

Let me explain why all this marauder concept is faulty.


1 These are combat ships that are not ewar ships neither remote repair ships. THat means their role is to DEAL DAMAGE.


2 Dealing damage is their primary work, a work they do as well outside bastion mode as in bastion mode (the meager range extension is almost irrelevant). THere is no reason why I would prefer new marauders to old ones, because they do damage same way while the old ones are way faster .


3 Bastion mode without damage bonus is a waste of an idea. Who would use dreads if siege only gave them tank?


4 The only way a bastion module with range bonus would help is if ccp changed the horrifically short 249 km lock range limit. IF we could lock things at 300 km, then this extra range would mean something tactically. But even then would be a minor thing.



5 Give bastion a 25% damage bonus and the ship magically becomes something that makes sense.

That's the point though.

They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp.

If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship

Questio to CCP Ytterbium.

How you guys intend to evaluate marauders in the test server when the largest issue right now is envisioning realistic tactical situations where the ship is worthwhile?

The theoretical numbers of the bastion mode are easy to run. The hard thing is to find situations where a marauder would be much better than a normal battleship. More in fleets (Even small ones) when logistics and Battleships are not vaslty superior to marauders?


The alrgest issue with the bastion proposal is that it adds OVERTANKING to PVE, that helps in nothing, and has very little tactical value in PVP (near to nothing since other more common options are far superior if yu want to keep your firepower alive.)

I'm still a sad panda thinking of my Marauder skill being quite useless for pvp, I mean, there's nothing a Marauders offers to me for pvp I can't do it with a cheaper Battleship.

I want something special, not necessary a new role but something where my skill training effort justifies the acquisition and playing with a Marauder, and I still think the Bastion module training skill is not really a reward for all the training skills required to fit/fly those ships properly.

I don't want a solo powmobile nor a massive fleet of those burning all eden to the ground in a blink of an eye or titan bridge, I want something I take the risk to fly, move in to enemy lines and have a chance to get back or put the misery on them before I blow up in a magnific explosion.

ATM doesn't fit at all in my expectations and the only ships (T3) that actually aloud this are on the verge of receiving a huge hammer nerf beyond the ground when they don't need it anymore after latest changes to other ships.

:sad panda:

If they are powerful they will be used. See vindicators and amcahriels. Just give us a reason to brign a marauder to the field and we shall do it. But current bastion idea is not useful , not for pvp neither for PVE (again overtanking is useless)

Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.

Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.

That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.

I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct.

THe best CCP can ever do is enver listen to YOU.

The fact hat CCP ASK for feedback is the only thing that prevented this game from failcascading several times already.

Bastion is useless just that. The CURRENT marauders can run missiosn better than the upcommign ones.

And both are useless at PVP.

To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?

That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.

To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?

That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.

marauders cannot be remote repaired in bastion, so givign them logistic capability woudl not exscalate into somethign overpowered. Would just give the bastion marauders something to be meaningful in a fight. Otherwise the marauders only trick is "being left to be killed by last on the fleet"

So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.

1. They need changed because they are near useless in pvp and many areas with rats that jam.
2. They are the only combat ships that cannot do pvp.
3. Bait, station camping, gate camping, small gang roams, sig fleet roams, system defense, sniping, null anoms.
4. Small gang roams, sig fleet roams, bait, station camping, gate camping, defense fleets, sniping.

So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.

Still w8ing for their new stats. Especially better range bonuses in bastion...


BTW. For those interested, single dread will tear apart bastion without problems, tested on golem with DCU, T2 Invus x2, x-large ASB + large ASB + boost amplifier, all overheated and Naglfar blap it within seconds...

You would actually fly a kronos in null? Ok... I'll be snipin in mah naga squadron while you sit 100km away being useless. ..

Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards.
Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec".
Every one of your actions displays what you think.

Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.

You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others.
Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.

Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.

And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.

are you trying to be stubborn or you are that limited? makign a ship PVP does nto make it non PVE able.

The macahriel was made for PVP, yet is used a LOT for pve.

All very nice this theory crafting for PvE, but CCP thinks this is now going to be a PvP ship!!! Tell me about the PvP people...

These nerfs are NOT because of PVP.. they are there because of BASTIOn that is a compeltely PVE focused module (because in PVP those capabilities are useles).

THe only PVP buff was the MJD bonus.

Because the more range, E-War immunity and super tank is of no worth in PvP

The range that is irrelevant sicne you cannot move?

The Ewar immunity that is near irrelevant since you are less dangerous than a T1 battleship and therefore not gonna be the primary focus of the Ewar boats?

The super tnak that wil ljust make the rest of your fleet die before you,, because they have a full minute they do not need to worry of you runnign away?

Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???

At least Marauders are large enough targets for missiles to be pretty effective against..

Not to mention they're immobile

But CCP won't listen. Guys like Yitterbum refuse to see the reality of this mess.

It occurs to me that every other T2 ship has increased damage. Case-in-point:

Navy Hookbill: +20% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 3.6 equivalent)
Hawk: +10% kinetic damage, +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 4.4 equivalent)

Caracal: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (5 launchers = 6.67 equivalent)
Caracal Navy: +5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (6 launchers = 8 equivalent)
Cerberus: +5% rate of fire, +5% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity, +10% flight time (6 launchers = 10 equivalent)

Drake: +10% kinetic damage (6 launchers = 6.6 equivalent)
Drake Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent)
Nighthawk: +7.5% kinetic damage, +7.5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (5 launchers = 11 equivalent)

Raven: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (6 launchers = 8 equivalent)
Raven Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent)
Golem: +5% explosion velocity, +10% missile velocity (4 launchers = 8 equivalent)

Bastion should really be giving these a damage, rate of fire or heat absorption (overloead) bonus.

You do realize that 1 Keres and 1 Sentinel will now be able to pin down a Marauder that is running solo in low sec?
Both the Keres and Sentinel will lock the Marauder long before it locks them. The Keres will damp the range of the Marauder, the sentinel will start neuting it, and both will kill the first 5 small drones that might be on the field. Any subsequent flights of drones sent out by the Marauder will not attack, because the Marauder has no lock, and that's that.

The Marauder is pinned down, until heavier ships show up to kill it.

Hell, one inty will likely get under the guns, and easily speed-tank the guns because of the removal of the web bonus, while shooting any drones that can catch it.

Question for people that know what they are doing:

If you got into say, a Golem, and went into an Incursion site, and just bunny hopped via MJD a LOT, and just stayed as far as possible with cruise missiels and popped stuff, even assuming you'd eventually pop big triggers and start running into some nasty DPS before having to skedaddle - oh look I used a new word - will that actually still make you more then running an L4?

I have another 2 bored people that I might be able to get to fly Marauders, maybe we can squeeze some new fun out of this, we're still too wussy to go in WH's.

Whats the point of mjd if warpgate is at half of mjd range?, u will jump it over and end on other side as far as u was before. learn math mate

Besides half missions got npcs between your warpingpoint and warpgate, and some got npcs at warpgate, so juimping around in random directions wont help at all.

Proper minmaxed fleets wont have space for marauders. They will be 3 logis and about half half t3 and Vindicators (or other flavor damage ship of the season).

Marauders cannot replace any of those in fleets and tryign will result in less money per hour.

But doing triangulation would still be slower than traveling those same 60km for example on a vargur with deadspace ABurner.

ok ccp wtf kinda logic is this....


If your that worried why even give the paladin a range bonus per level? That's like the epitome of backwards thinking..... How changing that buff to something else so this thought of needing some stacking penalty in bastion mode isn't needed. it just hurts every other ship just because you didn't think of another bonus to give the paladin. Give it tracking speed per level or 2% resists per level for armor or scan res per level (i know it's dumb) Or even 2% armor amount per level since amarr are extreme armor freaks. I Just don't see a point in giving a bonus to a ship and then penalizing everyone else because of some off form of logic on your part.

I do hope you reply to this question and somewhat of a resolution to this conundrum of yours.

You guys think of some off things to fix a simple problem like this all the time.... Ohh.... this one shoots too far so instead of chaining a bonus (a new one mind you) you penalize every ship of that type for it. You guys often go to extremes when only a small simple fix is needed.

GÇó Increase the speed (not necessarily "Mach" fast, but faster than each Faction equivalent by 5-10 m/s)
GÇó Retain the MJD feature/bonuses and give them full T2 resists already
GÇó Turn Bastion into a performance-based module with the following bonuses (per) Marauder level: +10% sensor strength, +10% scan resolution, +10% cooling and +5% to shield/armor/hull resistances

By tying Bastion into the Marauder skill, it actually justifies training it and rewards those players who already made the commitment. With the higher T2 resists and no longer being stationary, Bastion bonuses have been adjusted down, removed or replaced entirely. Because Bastion still runs in 60-second increments, effectively managing the overheating and cooling aspects of Marauders will prove to be a challenging skill to master. However, it does offer some interesting scenarios:

GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for an attempted escape (overheating a MWD to get clear to initiate a MJD)
GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for short-range offense (overheating webs, scrams and weapons, increasing sensor strength and providing increased defense against EW)
GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for rapid engagements (overheating an afterburner or MWD to close range to targets)
GÇó Engaging Bastion as a limited tank (base resistance increase; overheating active resistance and increasing the boost/repair rate while reducing cycle times)

Why dont we make them exact same ship s then and just change the weapons?

Marauders: n00b and improved...

So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death?

your second assumption would be correct.
with a pith x-type XL shield booster, I am boosting the Golem for 26% of its shield HP per cycle at my skills.
Pretty epic.

They are separate bonuses.. so if your starting cap boost is 100%. You add a 37.5% you have 137% of your original boost. NOw.. you add a 100% bonus. You get 274%.


Doe snto matter the order.
You coudl do 100% apply the 100% bonus to 200% then add 37.5% and end up with the same 274% of what you started.


Add crytal set over that again in a composite way

Well, it was just a thought of how funny it would look on say, a station camp, if a bunch of Marauders undocked and did this. For the record, to FOF Cruise missiles you are always "in range", especially with Bastion on, so I'm not sure I understand the comment regarding that part.

PLease try this useles tactic.. another free marauder kill for us or some other entity.


WTF people? Peopel are just hat blind to the realization that being static measn no one has to be inside your range if you are dangerous? That means that ALL fights that you effectively do fight... are the ones that you are sure to loose!

try that when a curse finds you.....

Cap boosters are cool.

still they end.... and still marauders cannot move.. and therefore cannot track any damm single AB cruiser.

While I confess that I don't entirely have much of a grasp on how to interpret a ship's inertia modifier, the Vargur looks like it accelerates better and is more agile than the Tempest it was created from. Not only that, but it has more EHP and better cap as well.

No complaints on hull stats here.

...
I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.

Translation:
Bastion is so utterly overpowered it trivializes missions to the point where piloting skills, fitting, effort and consequences in battle mean nothing.

The purpose of the post is to reflect that w/ general mission running, outside of the original advantages I have spoken about again and again including in the very first post you replied to (ewar, rare needs for MJD < 3mins) that the ship has taken an overall nerf.

I am glad that you see the advantages in mobility, and that when it comes to mobile vs bastionedcombat that the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur.

The point related to drones was not a blunder, and serves to indicate that even in immobile vs bastioned combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi marauder due to the drone bandwidth. Remember that original 36dps was estimated at a range of 40km. (all lvl V) an unbonused bouncer II(i.e. difference in bandwidth) deals around ~48dps to BS moving in a perfect 40km orbit around the stationary vargur. Assuming the same BS is on the approach, its ~53 dps. You dont waste time scooping if you arent moving. In immobile combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur

In summary:
TQ vs SISI vargurs in general lvl 4 combat outside of its few niche uses which I have on many occasions mentioned:
mobile vs mobile = winner TQ
mobile vs bastioned = winner TQ
immobile vs bastioned = winner TQ

The vargur has been nerfed.

[....] the pirate ones are the ONLY battleship sized vessels that can really excel at their role.

An no fancy overtankign gonna make marauders copensate the MASSIVE damage difference from a vindicator for example.

Speaking of, had any WH dweller commented on marauders' performance out there? I'm genuinely curious.

I did nto try kronos, But vargur is FAR FAR worse on sisi than oN TQ.

Smart peopel in TQ use propulsion mods to blitz trough missions as fast as possible.

The MDJ cannot even remotely match the mobility advantages that the vargur lost.

If the vargur had lost only 5ms speed like others marauders, the would be acceptable. But as of now.. well I already sold mine for a reason.

125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!?

Test in sisi, they blow up in between repair cycles (at least the armor tanked ones) when you get bad luck timed bursts of damage.


IF they had a much larger EHP pool, then they might indeed have a role in wormhoels as solo site runners.

The ship is MASSIVELY slower than before!!! Vargur was almost 20% faster before.

Just plug the numbers on EFT! It already has both marauders type son it.

The ship got slow enough !


Stop with your " I felt nothign wrong".. numbers.. numbers do not lie!!! The base speed was hugely nerfed and the decrease in mass is nowhere near 20%

The world is still big in some regards so I don't know what stuff you brush your teeth with, or what kind of it you're smoking, but this nerf we're talking about in effect means that in a minute the new Vargur is 7km behind the old one, when using MWD. Would you care to explain in what PVE situations this difference is so critical?

Now.. check the difference for peopel that used only the MJD (on some missiosn you did that)... and suddenly that gate taht was 8 km away is even more infuriating.

And if that speeds doe snto make so much difference as you claim, WHY NERF IT? Specially sicne the vargeur is the marauder that gets the LEAST form the bastion module ?

You mena makign all of them behaving almost exaclty the same?


Pff I have exchanged my remaining marauders for pirate battleships this weekend. BAstion module is a HORRIBLE concept. THe mJD bonus is nice, but the bastion is incredbly mehhhh (specially for vargur).

People are starting to get it:

Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M
Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M
Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M
Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M

In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped.
The market is speaking CCP.

These changes are garbage.

snipped to save space.

I noticed you changed your rigs. There may be hope for you yet xD! At anyrate, i assume you posted the fit cause you'd like some review so here are a few things to consider,

= RF gyros =
Granted you may not wanna change all four, but at least 3 (the difference in benefit between RF and T2 by the fourth is small due to stacking penalties). I know you're on sisi atm and may not have access, but it is really something to consider. Changing all gyros to RF is around a 4.3% increase to DPS with your fit but it has another benefit as u'll see:

= Changing Collision II to Burst II =
On a bare bones T2 fit before implants your dps will increase less than 1% (~0.81%), kinda meh, but it doesnt scale the way you might think. For example, lets say you move to RF gyros, the difference between the Collision II and Burst II is now ~2.73%.
Just a secondary perk of this change: i dont really have hard numbers for it, it will depend on your skills and implants as well, but this should help prevent overkill. my AC and all related gunnery skills are maxed. Lightly tanked cruisers are 1 shot and normal cruisers are 2 shot most of the time. frigs are normally killed in less than a full volley. As to the weight of total dmg increase due to a decrease in overkill... I have no idea and it would depend on the mission.

= More =
SS tracking comps (1.7% dmg inc @ 40km if all changed, but 2 SS TCs -> 3 T2 TC (~2.6%) (compared with current fit)

drop a tracking comp for another prop (yeah, ull lose out on 2.6% @40KM, but moving ~2KM closer will inc dmg by ~2.85% on your current fit and of course that 2.85% will continue to increase the closer you get + most missions dont really need a mjd, so if you wanted to you could add the tc back when you dont need to jump. Most missions you dont need to jump anyway.)

avoid using bastion to make use of mobility

I know you disagree with me about the latter 2 points, but im hopeful after seeing you make the rig change, so imma make this attempt! If you like some of these suggestions and decide to modify your fit, I have a hunch you will start to... well, maybe not agree with me, but see and understand my point of view on these vargur changes xD.

You realize 3 tc, bastion and ambit are all stak nerfed and you are effetively wastign slots?


Anything more than 2 TC alongside bastion is a huge waste because of stack nerfing.

Vargur as in SISI will be INFERIOR to current vargur. The paladin wil be superior, the golem a bit superior and the Kronos.. well that is harder to decide upon (blasters wil be way weaker, but rails stronger).

quick summary, my general process goes something like: EFT crunch -> live testing -> re-examine via ETF

added the word "live" for context

The main reason is that it is harder to prove:
* I cant ensure the environments are similar between servers (warp speed changes, spawn locations, warpin locationd, etc)
* The tests require different roles, I cant prove that my performance was equally up to par in both roles. ppl will believe what they want to believe. ppl who support bastion staying the same can say I just didnt use bastion correctly, or challenge me with a faster clear time that never actually occurred.
* I cant run enough tests to get a decent average to mitigate variable influence
* On the other hand, I can very easily prove that like: ~4KM of movement renders bastion projection obsolete.
* The numbers are difficult properly display their significance properly.
If I say: "Ship A needs a 10% [fill in the blank] increase" the thread goes crazy because the number is concrete.
If CCP says "Ship A needs a 10% [fill in the blank] decrease" the thread goes crazy b/c the number is concrete.
If I say: "Ship A completion: 10 mins, ship B completion: 9 mins" no one cares
If I say: "Ship A completion: 20 mins, ship B completion: 18 mins" no one cares
For all anyone knows it could be variables I cant control.
In all of these circumstances (save a few select stats), the difference is 10%.




As indicated above, I wont do that. With the randomness and uncontrolled variables of this game it is very difficult to prove X difference in completion time was directly attributed to factor Y, esp when there are not solid averages to draw from. We are probably (before additional warp ~time on gates, including the use of bastion vs non bastion, not factoring heavy ewar missions) within 5% - 15% differences in missions completion times ( 3 - 9 mins every hour).

Things I can prove:
* Mobile > Bastion's projection
* Dual prop > single MJD + 3rd TC
* Bastion needed for dual prop
* The rebalance is occuring b/c of power creep
* Marauders were promised the ability to project dmg better than pirates
* At various AC ranges, benefits of damage at range via bastion < Machariel's turret DPS lead (not to mention the further you get out the less tracking matters) (on realistic loadouts mach can lead til around 50KM, and Vargur gains ~13dps over the mach by around 70KM.. This is before taking the mach's drone advantage into account)
* marauders fall victim to power creep due to looting structures in pve

If its nto that world changign why not KEEP its speed? So that the vargur is not the NERFED ship?

I should reiterate for clarity. It difference wasn't simply speed, it was the difference between typical tq, and a bastion sisi fit. This wasn't a comparison between sisi running the same strategy as tq, I don't have numbers for that, but if those numbers are correct, bastion should be avoided on the vargur when possible.

I can prove that the vargur did not get the projection it was promised, and the projection it received is pointless. According to the goals listed in the rebalance, the vargur is supposed to be able to project dmg better than the mach, which hasn't occurred. Instead, the offense gap has been widened. A major point of the rebalance was to make the ship more appealing. Less dps, less mobility, poor RR compatibility, the same terrible sensor strength, and various bastion penalties does not accomplish this.

I dont think you get it.. Vargur got zero buffs. BAStion is NEGATIVE on it . The MJD thing is cool, but is INFERIOR to old vargur speedy movment when you run L4 to make real isk real fast.


I repeat.. vargur got ZERO buffs!! Using bastion mode is detrimental to anyoen that knew how to use the ship.

I agree with what your saying, the last thing a Bastioned up Paladin needs is more optimal, but to give it tracking would step on the toes of the Nightmare, which goes against the goal of the changes - marauders have the edge in tank and projection whilst the pirate BS's win out in absolute DPS and application.

Plus if your using Aurora your doing it wrong, INMF tachs and conflag pulses are where its at.

BS launchers are considered to be "bigger" than BS turret weapons. Unbonused torps do substantially more DPS than even unbonused neutrons. For this reason, no battleship in the game has 8 launchers and a damage or RoF bonus. The Golem has 8 effective launchers, that's why it doesn't get a damage bonus.

Remove the Paladin's optimal bonus and give it a tracking bonus like the other Marauders have. Then take the stacking penalty off the Bastion module. Just like that, short-range weapons become just slightly better in Bastion without projection on lasers becoming ridiculous.

Tracking bonus woudl be FAR FAR weaker than range bonus n paladin.

Paladin with range bonus is the marauder recievign the LARGEST buff!!


GEt real people!! To be able to fight at MDJ range with PULSES is HUGE!


The trackign bonuses are the weak ones, because marauders are made to fight at 100km, where tracking is IRRELEVANT (you can track any npc frigate at that distance)

Inb4 someone says "Moving around in a Marauder is the wrong way to fly them now".

Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD.

Care to cite your internal sources within CCP?

Apocalypse also has a tracking bonus, that's why the Paladin should have it.

You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.

If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.

The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.

Dont you get it? Its a bonus tied to a skillt hat wil ALWAYS be level 5.


The bonus does not exist! They Made the ship expecting that cap and simply reduced the base cap by 25%.


Bonuses tied to the t1 skill should never be upon base hull attributes, but upon weapons and modules modifiers.

Don't you get it? The moment you can put your ass in that ship you have already trained your Amarr Battleship skill to 5. That means you get +25% total cap at most early stage of your life with Paladin. Total amount of cap can be integrated in hull (as it's just one of hull's attributes, and was done in previous balancing of other ships). The more reasonable bonus would be -10% (or -5% or -7.5% or -3.75% any would do) to Energy weapon cap consumption as in some other cases. Or any other bonus, but something that not related to hull's attributes. Something like mentioned already weapon/module bonuses.

And those other hull bonuse son t2 hulls, based on the t1 skills ahve been mostly removed trough tiercide. That is my point.

My original statement was that if they removed the range bonus for soemthiugn weaker like tracking Then they should integrate the cap bonus in the hull and give somethign on its place.

As I stated, that would be moslty needed if the RANGE bonus was to be removed as the guy just before myoriginal post was requiring. On the current scenario, with the range bonus the "lost" bonus is acceptable. But if paladin lost its only POWERFUl bonus, then the cap bonus would need to be gone for basically anything useful.

Insults? i did nto insult anyone. Peopel shoudl learn to read the covnersation before getting in middle of it. I was answering to another post that asked for the range bonus to be removed because it was too powerful

For god sake people, learn to use a forum, read the thread, not singleposts. This is not twitter!

Not raging on you, jsut bafled on a person that half read a post that states that my other post was upon what another guy posted ignoring the part of another guy and transforming it in " imagination".


Too many people read these messages as twitter, these youglings that do not grasp what a FORUM is.

Inb4 "OMFG CCP FU 5% NERF YOU MADE MACHARIEL WORTHLESS WTF OMFG WTFFFFFFF!!!!!!! I'M UNSUBBING ALL 300 OF MY ACCOUNTS PREPARE TO GO OUT OF BUSINESS WTFFFFFFFFF"

Or something like that.

[The Golem] is the only marader that doesnt lose dps due to being stationary.

the vargur is not a bad ship, just bad compare to the other marauder. it is still way better than many other BS.

I [....] will never do PvP in a Marauder in low or nullsec. And i will never activate bastion within our High Sec wars. So for me a Marauder is stuck with PvE and the cruise golem is still one of the best.

at risk of being flamed

when did they put the 30% resists back in? i thought that went?

Let me point you to:

Vargur was the marauder that lost MOST speed.

Vargur was the marauder that reduced the LEAST its signature radius.

Vargur is the marauder that gained LEAST range from bastion.

Vargur is the Maraurder that has highest difficulties on fighting at 100 km ( MJD).

Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least.

Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least.

I'm divided on the changes. On the one hand I really like that finally a battleship has a tank that is superior to everything else in game subcap. On the other I can tank a Blood Raider 10/10 without hardners and be cap stable. Seems slightly OP. But also its a battleship.

I'd like to see this on normal battleships but without the EW immunity and perhaps half the tankability of the Marauder.

These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game.

The thing is, marauders made even easier to do PVE, but was already easier. But they are worse at doign isk/h in high sec.


Also the ship may LOOK powerful for PVP on paper, but on real battleground its immobility makes it not very relevant anywhere outside high sec POS bashing. Anywhere else they are just food for naglfar insta popping.

Bastion is not even powerful for most pvp scenarios. The power projection of the ship is very low. It cannot go along your fleet movement during combat so its use is very limited.

:-) since you can build a dual-rep, triple remote rep, cap stable paladin which (with fleet boosts) tanks 9000dps with plenty of cap to spare, (+100 Gj/s) while being totally immune to ECM, I'd say marauders were totally OP - by a wide margin.

This triage marauder tanks as much as a... *dreadnaught in siege mode* while delivering 700dps, repairing its buddies and shrugging off a 12-man cruiser fleet.

This would be reasonable for a carrier, not a battleship. Bastion is just ridiculous.

As I said before, I'll abuse it while I can, but it needs to be removed from the game.

ASB are very limited time wise. For the typical engagement scenario of a marauder they are not the best choice. So not overpowered.

Bastion module is too extreme on one side and too weak on other. I need less defensive power and more offensive power. Add a 25% tracking and change the falloff bonus to 50% then reduec the repair ammount to somethign like 60-70%

When an ASB had enough charges for a full minute.. yes.. sicne they were nerfed you wil lget a few secodns with no repair between them. That is when you get vulnerable.... not that is a large time. Just pointing the thing is not so invulnearable.

What I'm saying is they're not as OP as you're making out. If we T2 fit the golem and the rattler, with the same boosts and links we get 22k Rattler, 27k Golem. Golem is unable to be RR'd and is immobile while the Rattler can receive RR and is mobile.

The Rattler needs an extra ASB and an extra boost amp but given the RR and the mobility there's not a lot of difference in baitability or killability.